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Re: [RT] Re: Advertising



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There is more wisdom in Ira's statement  then almost anything else I have seen on this list for years. I made almost all these points with a perspective student just yesterday. Most people on these list do not want to think and analyze, they want a simple indicator to tell them what to do.
 I believe the most important thing this list can contribute is education yet I have little confidence that an organization around education would succeed. I remember years ago Eddie Kwong tried to segment the group into interest areas with a leader for each segment. The experiment failed miserably.
Regarding the advertisement issue, I would recommend that identification of educational services be allowed on the list but that vendors  selling systems and indicators WITHOUT educational material be filtered out. One way that the list could move to a more educational approach is to require that anyone offering a forecast, or opinion of the market include a short description of the theory behind the opinion AND a follow-up discussion of how it turned out. This may be difficult to enforce but the list members could demand it.
 
Regards,
Jim White
----- Original Message -----
From: mr.ira
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: [RT] Re: Advertising

At one time this list had a couple of people who were into ridicule of almost everyone that had something to say or contribute.  That turned me off for quite a while and at times I am still hesitant to post.  I don't need it and some others who have knowledge to pass on were turned off also.  Like most groups on the net there are a very few members that contribute and the rest just lurk. 
 
There are those that troll for names to solicit and there are others that seek nothing but to take and not contribute.  There are certain posts that I will respond to if I see something different and feel that it might help.   Most posts I just ignore.  
 
I have posted several projections on this list that have come to pass.  I have seen Ben stick his neck out on numerous occasions as well as Clyde and some others.  I don't trade very often any more.  I have been retired for over 20 years.  But the markets are worse then a drug and the fascination with the markets still holds my curiosity and attention.  I have used the same system for over 30 years and never had to change or adjust it.  I didn't re-invent the wheel or unearth the Holy Grail.  Everything that you need to win in the markets is out there and has been there for 30 years or more. 
 
 Most people on these lists are seeking a free lunch.  I don't blame them, I feel sorry for them as most of them will go through their money and be no better off then when they started.  How many of you have blown your capitol, saved up and tried again and failed, and so on.  This is a business like any other.  95% of all start-up businesses fail.  The reason.  The people that start them don't know how to run a business.  Is trading any different?  You can blame everyone for your failure, but it is no ones fault but yours.  You go to years of school to learn a profession and then you intern in order to become proficient at, it rather then just school smart.  Yet you expect to become a good trader and make a living just because you have several thousand dollars to put into an account or because you were successful in your present business or profession.  If you were a successful lawyer and made tons of money would you expect to be able to walk into an operating room and do brain surgery because you read a book and got some information on a medical web site.  I don't think so, yet you feel that you can become a successful trader by doing exactly that.  
 
Have any of you set down what you want a system to provide you?  Profit isn't the answer to the question.  Have any of you laid out a business plan or risk analysis for a money management system?  Have any of you bothered to find out what an indicator is supposed to do and why the numbers used are important?  Have any of you done anything other then grab a gem here and there and figure that over time you will figure it all out because are smart and successful in your current position?  This is a business like any other.  You buy inventory and then you try to sell it at a higher price or you sell it first and try to buy it back later at a cheaper price.   Like any other business if you buy wrong you lose.  To buy right you have to understand what you are buying and whether the system that you are using says you will be able to do so.  If you were running a regular business you would look cost of inventory, a rate of return and cash flow to mention just a couple of things.  Instead most are looking to ride one big winner into the sunset.
 
I am sorry about getting carried away, but every now and then I guess one just has to speak out.  Have a good week all.  Ira.
 
 
 
 
From: Dan C
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [RT] Re: Advertising

I have never belonged to this group when it was active, and frankly think I missed out.  While other lists that I have been associated with seem to grow and flourish, this one seems to be stuck.  Really unfortunate for those like me who are still the neophytes, the unwashed beginners (and some of us take a very long time to become relatively proficient).  And I value the input to this list when it does arrive; for me I try to glean what nuggets appear.  So I thank those who do take the time to do so like Ben, Earl, you Bob, Clyde, Ira, when he does.  Those whom come to mind at the moment.  And I know there is a lot of wisdom, knowledge, and talent represented in this membership.

So what has caused the die off?  I have never felt that has been flaming or trashing anyone's posting.

What would cause anyone to become more active?

As of this moment there are 942 members.  Why are we all hanging around?  Why the large membership that does not post?  What does the membership want to see here? 

As far as advertising is concerned:  I really get annoyed by overt, blatant postings.  I don't care much if  what is posted is related to a discussion or in response to query.

Bob, when it does surface, there is generally enough bitching at the poster to at least bring it to your attention and you can act on it however you are inclined.  I am with what John seems to be stating that a relative standard could be applied rather than an absolute one.

Some thoughts,

Dan



BobsKC wrote:
I am in favor of invigorating the list as much as you are John.  I will do anything the membership wants to do  but it will take some convincing to cause me to believe that a majority of our members want to see any type of advertising on this list or that the list would be somehow better with such content.  I do waive this rule at the end of each year for the week between Christmas and New Years so our members who wish to, can state what they offer and how to access those services or products but how a steady flow of such information would improve the quality or animation of the list escapes me.

This list doesn't belong to me or anyone.  It belongs to all of you and if you want unrestricted advertising on our list, let me know and if I hear from 50.1% of you that this is what you want, I'll drop that restriction. 

Bob



At 06:08 PM 9/26/2005, you wrote:

Bob:

 

While I in general support the prohibition on advertising, I thought Tim’s post was made within the proper context for usefulness.  Perhaps zero tolerance is just a little too oppressive.  It is my opinion, and my opinion only, that the quality of the discussion has evaporated over the last several years.   Perhaps a little leeway on this issue, in a contextual basis, would help invigorate the group and discussion a little.  It is just a suggestion in the spirit of Real Traders sharing their experiences.

 

Regards,

 

John J. Lothian

 

 

From: realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ mailto:realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of jim thompson
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 3:12 PM
To: realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [RT] Re: Advertising

 

I'm wondering Bob why we have that policy regarding advertising. Was that something the list members voted on or just the moderator decided on it or just how did that come into being?  You're right in that I believe the vast majority do not want this forum to be a place where we get inundated with tons of spam advertising. But I'm sure on the other hand many listers would be very interested in what Ira, Ben, Tim et al have to offer. I for one am always on a continual quest to be 'educated' and I'm willing to pay for it. Certainly we can contact them offline to find out what each has to offer, but, likewise, often we have no idea someone has something to offer unless they 'mention' it here. I, for one, found Tim's post very innocuous and appreciated him letting us know 'he's back' and how to get a hold of him and what he has to offer.  The majority of spam advertisers we've seemed to have here have been the one time blatantly hit and disappear type.  Maybe some leniency could be available to listers who have been on the forum say for a year+, or who have posted X number of times or something similar.  jt



   From: BobsKC <bobskc@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Advertising

I have sent two direct mails to the offenders of our no advertising
policy in the past week warning them about violations of this
rule.  I remind everyone again that this list has zero tolerance for
ignoring this policy and after having sent this out, I will now
remove anyone who violates this policy without notice.  Simply put,
do not mention or brag or talk about your services or products or
anyone else's services or products on this list unless said products
or services are totally free without enhanced, charged services or products.

Bob




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