Ok, then you simply re-enforced the definition that I offered unto the group.
If by the "Not Automated" part you mean you simply execute the trades manually,
and needn't the help of a Automatic Execution algorithm, then ok. It is a system that
you simply manually place the trades. However, given this post as well as your previous
ones you also stated, that you *disregarded* some signals.
I EXPLAINED THAT I HAVEN'T TAKEN THAT TRADE BECAUSE OF A RULE THAT MADE THIS ENTRY ILLEGAL (IT WAS NOT CONFIRMED BY HIGHER TIME FRAME CHART)
So by your own definition
of ,>>a system is a set of rules which must be adhered to to enter and exit trades without using discretion<<, your back to the basics of Discretion.
I understand from what you've described that you have several rules, "multiple choices",
MULTIPLE CHOICES WAS MENTIONED AS AN EXAMPLE OF DISCRETIONARY TRADING NOT SYSTEM TRADING
"higher time frames", etc.. There again, if you in fact have written and listed rules by
which to enter and exit your trades then they could in fact be programmed and allowed
to be traded automatically. However, again as you described earlier, you are choosing to
disregard some signals.
AGAIN, I DISREGARD SIGNALS WHICH DON'T SATISFY SYSTEM RULES
The Toolkit, indicator set, collage of oscillators, etc.. are therefore
simply allowing you to take precise trades at a specific time or tick bar. But in the end
you as the trader are having to consider "Market Structure" and then simply REACT to what
you are seeing. If you feel the signal makes no sense given the market environment,
then you simply negate that signal and move on. Is this correct?
NO, IT ISN'T. SEE ABOVE
If so, then all I'm suggesting is that you simply use correct semantics.
By sharing with the group in your earlier post you were attempting to share how your "system"
and therefore "Systems" in general could potentially trade very effectively in the market
environment that some traders may find difficult. However, in reality all you've shown is
that your toolkit, pointed out some good points of entry in retrospect. Which again brings us
back to the reality that unless you as the trader REALLY took those trades then the
signals as a retrospective point of reference mean nothing.
WHETHER I TOOK OR NOT IS UNIMPORTANT. I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE SYSTEM ITSELF AS COMPARED WITH SETUPS
OF DISCRETIONARY TRADING.
What you are describing to us is more the fact that points of entry were pointed out to go
in the correct direction of market during the day. Well hopefully you took those entry
points. If so, then your discretionary mind REACTED to the right "signals" being displayed
on your charts.
NO DISCRETION USED
If you are really trying to make the arguement that your rules clearly define when, where, and how to take a trade, then Why not automate?
I'M IN THE PROCESS OF HAVING THE CONFIRMING RULES CODED,
HOWEVER, BECAUSE OF TICKBAR CHARTS I'M USING THERE ARE
SOME PROBLEMS WITH HAVING EXACT TRANSFER FROM THE HIGHER TIME FRAME TO LOWER.
My interpretation of this is that you cannot. Simply because your "system" requires YOU behind the screens in order to take the correct trades.
IT WILL UNTIL THE CODING IS DONE
Jan Philipp
jan4123@xxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
It is a matter of definition.
In my vocabulary, automated system has fully coded entry and exit signals.
Not automated, but still a system is a set of rules which must be adhered to to enter and exit trades without using discretion (e.g. having multiple choices). It can be a combination of coded signals with a set of additional rules, e.g. requiring signal confirmation by a higher time frame chart which I use.
That is how I define it, but I may accept other definitions without them affecting my stomach and I hope yours is better :-).
Jan Philipp
-----Original Message-----
From: momotrdr
Sent: Oct 22, 2005 2:19 PM
To: realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: actionReactionLab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [RT] My impression is that many had a bad day
I'd like to raise my hand and add to this topic the consideration for labeling correctly
what we are talking about. Assigning an operational definition if you will. When I hear the likes of J. Phillip using the word "System" to describe what he has it makes me sick to my stomach. For it is not a "System" but more a "Toolkit" that allows for interest to be taken
in "Statistically Significant points of interest" However, a System does Not allow for
any discretion to be added to the signals being delivered on the chart or in fact
executed by the program.
Appologies in advance to the list, just so tired of hearing people describe what they have
as a System then go on to describe how they took this trade but didn't take that one, etc..
etc..
I do mostly discretion myself, and have kicked and crawled my way up the food chain
from doing 1 and 2 lots to 100 and 200lots at a time. So, I feel I have something to add here.
However, I do have at my disposal, Systems. They do help me by drawing my attention
to overall market structure throughout the day and potentially a bias that *may* be forming or has already formed. For instance the Systems that I run and have at my disposal are 100% automated, true Systems, no discretion involved. Of the few only one has a track record of 8+years producing a 45deg. equity curve and back to back month to month profits.
in the style of J.P. not trying to brag, but taking it one step further, running a true system
can and does produce real world profits. Furthermore, attempting to backtest a so-called,
"system" that was previously described doesn't produce a trackable equity curve.
the following is Not curve fitted(at all) and accounts for comms., and slippage(in/out)
Hope we can all call a System a System and anything else that is discretionary with
help of indicator sets, whether Strategy-based or not "a Toolkit."
EAdamy <eadamy@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
There are some regulars who have been on this list for many, many years and Tim Morge is one of them. I use quite a variety of tools (EW, regression channels, forks, etc.) and apply the tools individually or in combination as the market varies its character. I do use some of Tim's methods and they do work well for me. I also enjoy reading Tim's commentary because they describe in logical detail how he does his setups and how he executes his trades as the market unfolds. I've been around trading long enough to spot a BS artist from quite a distance and Tim is not one of them.
I submit that the long term "survivors" on this list are perfectly capable of setting up trades "ahead of time" and executing their trading plans. For discretionary traders, the market is part "art" and "sixth sense" and it must work to the trader's advantage or they would not be among the survivors. Finally, most wannabe traders will take a good system and lose money with it because they will not have the discipline to execute the system as it needs to be executed ... been there done that. I tried system trading for some years before I threw it out and began applying discretionary trading techniques. Discretionary works for me, but you won't see me trashing system traders. In fact, I follow Clyde Lee's posts on his cyclical systems with considerable interest.
Earl
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 1:43 AM
Subject: Re: [RT] My impression is that many had a bad day
Tim,
It was never my intention to accuse you of fitting forks into trades or vice versa. It's just that pichforks, wave count, Wolve, etc. all of them prove well in hindsight, but are not so easy to set up ahead of time to get good results. This all boils down to the question: what is the accuracy of these methods which is hard to answer because they are as much science as art. Not many traders will get the same results using the same methodology of that sort.
I mentioned the Median Line because I visited your "conference room" ystd and watched your chart at the same time as I was trading my system (from ~12:30 to 13:10) so it was the first thing that came to mind. And I did say that pitchforks often work which obviously was the case of your recent trades.
As to my trades of ystd, I just showed what a system can do (not as evidence of my prowess) on a day which caused some confusion among some traders on the list.
Let's not be too sensitive and no bad feelings, please,
Jan Philipp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS